Motorist Vs Courier

hool: 26th Jan 2006 - 07:58 GMT

EDITOR'S NOTE: The Toronto Star took the photographs from this article, and printed them on the front page of Tuesday's paper. The Toronto Star used these photos despite the photographer's explicit statement to them that they do not have permission to print the photographs. Citynoise.org and its contributors retain copyright to their work. Do not reproduce without consent. And now back to our regularly scheduled internet.

the first few are dark because i was set to manual exposure for a bright shot before this suddenly appeared across the street.

anon (digitalaudio.DESIGN.upenn.edu): 26th Jan 2006 - 11:21 GMT

best citynoise of all time, a title formerly held by Crow Vs. Goose...

Cheesy_Member: 26th Jan 2006 - 11:59 GMT

A few questions for you Hool....
Was the Courier female?
How do you get away with taking pics.. no one seems to notice? Hidden Cam?

Catherine Penfold-Waxman: 26th Jan 2006 - 13:30 GMT

Hool, embedded photograper, Toronto.
I'd love to know what happened and why the motorist went apeshit.

indykid: 26th Jan 2006 - 13:48 GMT

WOW! Wonder why that all blew up?...surely if the courier had hit the car, she would of got away by the time the aggressive guy got out? Besides, I think you can see someone is in the driving seat of the car in the 1st pic?

Peter: 26th Jan 2006 - 14:03 GMT

Wow... yes, best of.

also: i see she has a u-lock tucked under her belt. she should have been using that on the guy attacking her. nothing quashes road-rage like a 5-pound steel bikelock swung full-speed into one's face.

jsolo_uno: 26th Jan 2006 - 15:24 GMT

that kook had better have been arrested or beat the shit out of.
damn straight a u-lock should def be used on heads like that...

amore e biciclette: 26th Jan 2006 - 16:10 GMT

i see this messeneger around all the time. nice to see her fighting back!
damn kensignton, the motorists in there are nuts, i wish they could push it as a car free zone!

ryan: 26th Jan 2006 - 16:18 GMT

jeeff: 26th Jan 2006 - 16:45 GMT

there is quite a story behind this. i'm sure hool will share when he's woken up.

jack: 26th Jan 2006 - 17:11 GMT

i would love to kick the shit out of that bully. he is the kind of guy who would go after a smaller person, not to even mention a girl. sob.

adam: 26th Jan 2006 - 18:19 GMT

looks like the people got him.. roadrage + messengers = bad mix

hool: 26th Jan 2006 - 19:09 GMT

i did not see the beginning of this, but the report goes as follows:
motorist throws food out of window. courier, disliking littering, picks up food and throws food back in car. motorist dumps coffee on courier. courier scratches car with key. road rage ensues.

the courier is female. i 'got away' with taking pics by just doing it openly. nobody noticed me because the focus is obviously on the altercation at hand.

i followed the motorist back to his car to photograph his license plate number. he proceeded to open his trunk, take out a baseball bat, and charge me. i walked away, and was one of only two witnesses to stay at the scene and give a statement to police.

Catherine Penfold-Waxman: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:00 GMT

Littering, assault, property damage, threatening behaviour, general stupidity. I think this guy is going down.

ahimsa: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:16 GMT

jesus, what a fucking asshole
i hope he got in trouble because that was fucking ridiculous.

after this nap: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:23 GMT

Well it's obvious she didn't back down. Good for her. I usually try to avoid confrontations with motorists..up to a point. If someone actually stopped their car to stomp on my bike, they would have a car with a lot of missing windows.

Leera: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:31 GMT

Yea. U kno, road-rage is stoopid, but when u see some guy tryna beat up a girl and smash her bike, u think da fucker deserved it. And he prolly did. So yea, good for her!! I feel so bad for her n hope her bike is OK 2.

knarf: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:33 GMT

That's Leah, a Toronto courier. I'm a former courier, now dispatching. She was defending her space, and this guy attacks her. Typical behaviour of a motorist.

-knarf

Peter: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:38 GMT

i agree. though i didnt always, the past couple of years i generally go out of my way to avoid road-rage situations or altercations like this while cycling.... yet theres something... something about the look on both his and her faces that forces you to empathize with her... and hope the guy at least learned his lesson (or gets a citation/fine/pinsihment or some sort).

getting thata aggro on another human (especially male-on-female violence) is just no good. and stomping her bike.... not cool.

KnacK: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:39 GMT

SOMEONE SHOULD POST THIS LINK IN OTHER TORONTO FORUMS SO WE CAN FIND OUT WHO THE GUY IS AND WHAT HAPPENED TO HIM AND THE POOR MESSANGER

Nexy: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:47 GMT

Hi Frank,

Interesting, I didn't think the article had any validity till I saw your name there - I was going to delete it out of the community that linked me here but as it is a valid article, it will remain.

Cheers
nex

jeeff: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:51 GMT

whew, good thing we've got frank's cred to back us up.

yokes: 26th Jan 2006 - 20:57 GMT

Based on hool's timeline, taking it at face value, frankly, both sides are to blame, at least partially.
1) He's an jagoff for littering.
2) She's a douchebag for throwing it back at him. She had no right to do this, however much we might agree with her motivations.
3) He's a major fucktard for throwing coffee at her (assault). Real mature, buddy. Real mature.
4) She's a bitch for keying his car. What is the best way to escalate a situation even further? This is.
5) He's a donkey raping shit eater for responding to the provocation and escalating it even further. I hope he is caught and does a little time behind bars to do some thinking.

serendipity: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:03 GMT

i sure hope the cops catch/caught this guy.

jeeff: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:03 GMT

i really like the smiling old couple in the first photo who look and just keeeep on walking...

T0r0nt0-MaSsIvE: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:06 GMT

Hey, thats Leah! I bet she kicked his ass, as well she should have!!!

Sam: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:08 GMT

That's not staged, I'm a friend of hers and she wouldn't do that. Looks like she got into his face, didn't back down. Good for her cause I bet she did it without escalating. She's nice that way.

Jeremy: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:08 GMT

I'm on the courier's side until she elevates to vandalism.

Yes, the motorist was wrong to litter, and I might have done the same as the courier. No, he shouldn't have dumped his coffee on her. However, scraping his car with a key takes it to a level far and above anything else. That sort of damage costs several thousand dollars to repair. I can totally understand why he then flew into a rage and stomped her bike.

I'm not excusing him but he is not the only guilty party here.

griim: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:12 GMT

I hope this guy is charged with something. Any followup on this?

jsolo_uno: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:21 GMT

"However, scraping his car with a key takes it to a level far and above anything else."

whoah, throwing coffee on someone is fucking assault.
damage to a fucking paintjob, he earned that as far as i'm concerned, if he wanted he had the option of legal action...at least before he stepped up his fucking violence. fuck him and his paintjob.

fuck that taking sides with the paintjob shit.

Jeremy: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:25 GMT

he is the most at fault here.

But rather than cause thousands of dollars in damage to his car over "potentially" hot beverage, she should have just punched him in the mouth.

Now he has phyiscal evidence to use against her.

cranky: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:25 GMT

Absolutely.

And as someone who is rather allergic to coffee, it would be a painful experience for me even if it was cold.

No, scratching a car wasn't the best thing to do, but I totally get the courier's actions.

ullyeus: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:26 GMT

WHOA

just WHOA

I personally think they both share some of that responsibility...I mean...keying his vehicle was definetly crossing a line

Mark: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:28 GMT

If someone's directly assaulting me, I'd rather go after someone directly than their car.

yokes: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:28 GMT

"whoah, throwing coffee on someone is fucking assault"

No doubt. So is throwing garbage back at someone (theoretically. The details of the throwing weren't provided).

Mark: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:29 GMT

well, at least the garbage probably wasnt scalding hot :P

jsolo_uno: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:29 GMT

"Now he has phyiscal evidence to use against her."
where this is true, your statement about how SHE had taken it "to level far and above anything else" by damaging his paint sort of indicates that you believe her to be the one carrying the most responsability for how this went down.

that idea irks me more than just a little.

Dave: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:31 GMT

It actually looks like he is trying to smash her bike, not her. Photo 6 looks like her assulting him while he's jumping on her back tire (maybe rightfully so)

She shouldn't have keyed his car. She should have called the cops after he threw coffee on her (which he shouldn't have done). If somebody keyed my car I'd want to smash their bike as well.

Mark: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:32 GMT

and if someone threw coffee at me, id want to key their car as well.

your car makes you look fat: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:32 GMT

how is the value of paint job on a thing more than the skin on someone's body?

Yalla: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:33 GMT

skin heals itself and paint doesnt? hahaha j/k ;)

Sam: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:34 GMT

It's a car, not his penis. Part of the problem is the attachment that weirdos get to their cars. For some reason otherwise ordinary people accept violence and commit violent acts, up to and including murder, because of a real or percieved affront regarding their automobile. It's just a car and it can't make you special, no one living in the real world should care what it looks like to the point of accepting violent behavior.

Just like "road rage" as a defense is not acceptable. It isn't a psychsosis or an altered state or a temporary pass to insanity land. It is a weakness plain and simple, weak character, poor impulse control, whatever you want to call it. It's just a failing and any damage resulting should be considered the resonsibility of the assailant, including any jail time owed to the society he somehow thought he was an untouchable in.

jsolo_uno: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:35 GMT

"It actually looks like he is trying to smash her bike, not her. Photo 6 looks like her assulting him while he's jumping on her back tire (maybe rightfully so)"

fuck that, the freak is practically on top of her in a violent rage, i don't care what his intention was, that there is self defence.

fuck him and his paint, fuck.

fuck=the new period

Catherine Penfold-Waxman: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:37 GMT

It's funny that if the courier had called the police when the driver threw presumably hot coffee on her, he would be buggered. And if he had called the police when she keyed his car, she would be looking at a fine. Escalating this didn’t do either of them any good.
Of course, who’s to say what triggers you to become a homicidal, axe-wielding murderer. Littering would do it for me.

Freud: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:39 GMT

I'd say they both have some aggression issues to iron out.

jeeff: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:39 GMT

don't forget that he also chased the photographer with a baseball bat.

jsolo_uno: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:39 GMT

to what sam said.
damn skippy!
guess i just assumed folks would have that as part of thier understanding of what common sense and decency might consist of...

Catherine Penfold-Waxman: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:56 GMT

I rescind any comments that infer any leniency toward the driver. He is an complete gobshite and I hope his nutsack falls off. (Thanks Jeef for reminding me that he nearly took a bat to Hool.)

Chucky: 26th Jan 2006 - 21:58 GMT

OK he threw garbage on the street (will piss people off) but she started it by throwing the garbage at him (will piss anyone off). she should have let him know that she didn't appreciate that. people in Toronto tend to disrespect each other so casually because they have a false sense of being in a "safe" city.

ken: 26th Jan 2006 - 22:11 GMT

scratched car != smashed bike + assaulted girl.

It's his own damn fault for owning something thats gonna cost thousands of dollars to fix a scratch on. Damn SUV drivers think the world is their trash can. His disrepect absolutely deserves having garbage thrown BACK at him and having his car scratched. I'd do the same thing in a heartbeat. Except, I'd get away before the douche could get out at me.

ian: 26th Jan 2006 - 22:41 GMT

I would have beat the shit out of him with the u-lock. I get crazy sometimes.

bikesafe: 26th Jan 2006 - 22:54 GMT

In one picture it looks like he's about to do the Roach Stomp dance on her bike.
What an unfortunate series of events. And I was considering being a courier myself. ;o)

I often feel like doing just what the courier did by throwing back the garbage into the car. Even as a pedestrian. But to get coffee dumped on? That's clearly assault. If I were her at this point, I'd have just taken it and the license plate number down and filed a report. But I wasn't there. Kudos to the passerby who took pictures. Perhaps the police will request local retailer's video camera footage as well.

I'd love to attend the court date for this one. I wonder if it'll make the City-TV news at 6?

Getting his car keyed kinda serves him (the driver) right for littering. I bet he'll think twice about that from now on. Or maybe not. Maybe he'll carry a gun instead of a bat next time. What is our city becoming?

Next time I go for a bike ride, I think I'll bring along a baseball bat. Just in case. ;o)

bikesafe

Jovan: 26th Jan 2006 - 22:58 GMT

I look forward to this being available on Pay Per View.
This is as entertaining as Bumfights.

anakanak: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:25 GMT

Based on the text report posted above, I think the line was crossed when she threw garbage in his car. Littering is a pain in the ass, but it wasn't directed at her, and it didn't actually harm her personally. She started it, he retaliated, she escalated, he retaliated again. She doesn't seem to have particular trouble standing up for herself. I'd say this is two hotheads duking it out, not some guy attacking some poor, defenseless female.

Crucible: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:27 GMT

Comp coverage would have covered the keying. And what about the charging with the baseball bat? But a salient point is, all this is speculation and hearsay. Even the person who took the pictures didn't see the whole story. Nonetheless, assault is never cool nor justified, unlesss it's in defence of oneself or others.

Jeremy: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:27 GMT

Insurance isn't free - the costs would likely come back in the form of higher premiums. Also he loses the use of the vehicle for the time it takes to repair it.

Either way, I'm not saying the guy isn't a totally assclown, just that the courier isn't a damsel in distress and is equally responsible for this combined idiocy.

mightydoll: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:29 GMT

It's not like she threw random street garbage into his car, she returned to him his litter. Very different, in my opinion.

Not that she should have keyed his car, but throwing coffee on someone IS assault and retaliation for assault is hard to prosecute.(he could argue that throwing the litter back into his car was assault too, that'd be up to the judge).

Logan: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:29 GMT

he'd have a strong case with the fact that he carries a BASEBALL BAT around in his car... who does that? and for what purpose? If you carry a baseball bat around in your car chances are it's there for a reason... not sure what that reason is... but it's probably nothing to do with jacking up your car if you have a flat tire...

Mr. Flagg: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:30 GMT

hitting a chick just isn't cool
no matter what else happened in that sitch

buddy needs to have his nads forcibly removed

mscissorhand: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:31 GMT

I have been known to hand someone back their own litter and am not ashamed to do so, littering is very offensive and illegal on many levels. It is too bad they don't really enforce fines for people who litter or dump garbage period. The rest of the situation is merely speculation as I wasn't a witness, both acted poorly, it all comes down to is assaulting a person a worse offense than harming a vehicle?

ilifer: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:33 GMT

n the picture it looks like he's about to do the Roach Stomp dance on her bike.
What an unfortunate series of events. And I was considering being a courier myself. ;o)

I often feel like doing just what the courier did by throwing back the garbage into the car. Even as a pedestrian. But to get coffee dumped on? That's clearly assault. If I were her at this point, I'd have just taken it and the license plate number down and filed a report. But I wasn't there. Kudos to the passerby who took pictures. I'd love to attend the court date for this one. I wonder if it'll make the City-TV news at 6?

Getting his car keyed kinda serves him (the driver) right for littering. I bet he'll think twice about that from now on. Or maybe not. Maybe he'll carry a gun instead of a bat next time. What is our city becoming?

anon (hlfxns0147w-1421672070a2.ns.aliant.net): 26th Jan 2006 - 23:33 GMT

They should both be charged.

kitty: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:35 GMT

Well then, picking fights with girls... hopefully he gets busted. Neither of them were in the right, but he went a little too far.

jewels: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:37 GMT

he's lucky she only keyed his car. if someone threw coffee at me, i would probably rip their face off. maybe i need anger management too!

but sadly, the story made me chuckle a bit... but only because it reminds me of the part in Anchorman when Will Ferrell throws the burrito out the window at Jack Black. At least she didn't punt his dog off a bridge or anything. haha. sorry.

Becky: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:39 GMT

So the correct response to getting coffee dumped on you is to smash their face with a steel bike lock? Keying his car is OK because it's only a car, but damaging her bike is wrong? Riiight.

Littering, tossing garbage in someone's car, assault, vandalism, and more vandalism; I don't see an innocent party here. Sure, he started it (if this were kindergarten), but there is no excuse for either of them escalating. The proper response to illegal behavior is not escalated illegal behavior.

Kenobi: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:40 GMT

Based on what's been said ...

The courier should NOT have thrown it back in, but instead just yelled at him to draw attention to him and make him look like an ass. Instead, she (allegedly) threw it back in which is just asking for trouble. She is not the police, and it's not her job to be judge & jury of a crime

KHS: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:42 GMT

lets see now ..
litlering, assult, assult & battery, property damage, damn close to assult with intent !!
not good, not good at all, a no win situation
another reason I carry a camera, pencil & paper, as I've had a few close calls myself.

a gold star for the dudes that interviened !!!

it would apperar that he has some major issues to address .. Soooooon !
my heart go's out to the gal tho

xforthebestx: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:49 GMT

i fully condone the action by the courier and expect each of you kids to put your money where your mouth is and go and key a car tonight. any car. indiscriminately. just make sure you don't use a car key though, shit's weak. if you don't do this, you are a posenger. straight up.

adamino: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:50 GMT

Sometimes I wonder what people think they'll accomplish by "teaching people a lesson?" Did she think the guy would chuckle, give her the finger guns and say "ya got me, hahaha!" Yeesh.

If it were me, and I really cared about litter, I'd pick it up and put it in the garbage.

jeeff: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:56 GMT

i wonder how differently this would have gone if she'd thrown it on his windshield. maybe he still would have freaked out, but i think her initial act would have been much more acceptable to most people. if he can throw it on the ground, it follows that she can throw it on a car.

hool: 26th Jan 2006 - 23:58 GMT

i was told by police that the courier could be charged with assault for throwing the food at the motorist, and mischief for the car damage (if the motorist chose to press charges) - and that the motorist could be charged with assault for his response in attacking (if the courier chose to press charges). the motorist drove away but was soon pulled over when we reported his license plate number. i do not know what the final outcome was in this situation. clearly, it shows how quickly a situation can escalate in the streets. choose your responses carefully.

to those who suggested attacking with the u-lock would have been an appropriate response: i disagree. that could lead to an assault with a deadly weapon charge, which carries a prison term. also, any weapon you use can be taken from you and used against you. a food fight should not escalate to skull cracking nor murder.

mindme: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:00 GMT

She should have used her bike. At least toss the food back and zip away, down a one way street. I don't know what she thought she was trying to do, all 98 lbs of her, waiting around to see the ape's reaction.

nex: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:01 GMT

After having some time to digest this during my dinner (there's a pun for you.. digest.. dinner... get it?), I think that she's awfully lucky that she didn't get a..umm... how do the kids say it.. "cap in her ass" I believe is the correct terminology?

Really, who knows WHAT that person could be carrying - it may not have been a baseball bat but a shotgun.. and buddy may have been just that insane as to have used it.

bikesafe: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:13 GMT

I hope the police "busted a cap in his ass" when they pulled him over.

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:23 GMT

ILifer-- That's right. From now on I'm going to be doubly careful not to squeeze past anyone or look at them the wrong way or do anything at all that they might not like, because They Might Have A Gun.

nex: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:33 GMT

We've seen people get beaten to a pulp for a lot less by idiots who obviously don't give a rats ass about you, the individual, or anyone else.

I'm not saying that one should not voice ones opinion regarding tossing out garbage; a simple "Hey buddy, I'm riding here, please be careful where you're throwing your garbage" would have been suffice.

Picking up said garbage and tossing it back just provides the idiot an opportunity to further escalate the situation - then it becomes a case of chicken - which, when dealing with an idiot such as this guy, is not exactly the smartest route to take.

sarah: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:34 GMT

What the fuck!!! It is also a misogynist taking it out on a woman, fuck that shit, I'd cut that man-bitch in a heartbeat. I usually always have my sizeable flip on the inside of my chest strap, a girls got to pack these days.

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:35 GMT

nex... Yeah but if he's an idiot, then a simple "Hey buddy, I'm riding here," could still set him off for all you know. Like you said, people get beaten to a pulp for less.

Not that I don't think it might have been wiser for to jot down his license plate and pedal her ass out of there after he dumped the coffee on her, but I think it's silly to walk around assuming anyone and everyone could be a nutbar with a gun.

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:45 GMT

also, re: using her bike, it's possible she tried to get away and he chased her, or she couldn't - it looks like they're in Kensington, which can be pretty dense and difficult to navigate, even on a bike, at times. We don't know the whole story.

From here, you can:

nex: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:46 GMT

shyzer--

Or a nutbar with a baseball bat..
or a nutbar with a knife..
or a nutbar who might just start up the van and try to run you over..

I could go on but my point is, don't bother provoking people into a situation that will easily escalate. After the "hey buddy I'm riding here".. pick up the garbage, as you said, take his plate, and ride along.

Life is too short to be wasting it trying to act tough, no matter who it is that one may or may not be trying to impress; even if that person is just yourself.

nobody: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:47 GMT

Maybe she was polite about it - we don't actually know. If it was, say, an empty coffee cup that he dropped on the ground, and she picked it up and dropped in in his window saying, "I believe this belongs to you," I'd say that's a totally appropriate response. A little snarky, bordering on rude, perhaps, but appropriate for the situation.

If it was, let's say, a half eaten sandwich, and she whipped it in the car deliberately so that its contents smeared all over the inside of the vehicle while yelling, "Don't litter, asswipe!", then I'd say she was clearly in the wrong from the start.

But we can only speculate on this for now.

abbey: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:48 GMT

Seriously though, regardless of what she said, she should have been smarter, people have been murdered over less.

scotty: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:48 GMT

how long is it before Chrome Bags uses some of these photos as promotional material?

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:48 GMT

Oh lord. Don't you start on that too. Please give me ONE example of someone being murdered over litter.

abbey: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:49 GMT

Read again, did I state that? The guy had a baseball bat in his trunk didn't he? You are picking the wrong person to argue with, whats the point?

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:50 GMT

Ok, show me one example of someone being murdered for less than litter.

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:50 GMT

Life's too short to be afraid of nutbars.

Though I won't defend the keying of the car, I don't think she intended any sort of bravado by returning his litter. Assuming she did it with any decorum (which she may not have) I actually applaud her sticking up for herself and the community that way.

abbey: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:51 GMT

Buddy. This is the internet. If you like it or not I have a right to my own opinions. I'm not here to argue them with you or anyone else. People have been killed/injured for looking at someone the wrong way, stepping on someones shoes, having a ipod or any other "device" of the moment. Go out and read a newspaper.

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:53 GMT

Buddy, this is the internet. We're all here to argue. I'm not denying you your right to an opinion; I'm engaging it. Part of having an opinion is defending it.

I'm asking for one example. A specific example, not generalizations. I refuse to believe that there's a trend or people simply killing perfect strangers for looking at them the wrong way. It's simply an urban myth. And the ipod thing doesn't count - we're not talking about theft here. We're talking about unpremeditated murder (which would likely be considered manslaughter, but semantics semantics) provoked over something as simple as litter.

mindme: 27th Jan 2006 - 00:55 GMT

The first rule of being a biker activist: make sure you have an escape route before you take on an ape behind the wheel.

abbey: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:00 GMT

So I am going to sit here looking for one single occurance where someone was injured or killed for something that is deemed minor? Obviously I stated my point for a reason, I have seen people injured because they stepped on someones new shoes, but thats irrelevant. Any teenager in high school can tell you they've seen someone get the shit kicked out of them for less. Have a great night.

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:01 GMT

I'm just asking you to back that up. If you can't think of one single occurance, then you probably shouldn't have said it.

abbey: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:01 GMT

can think of plenty, like I said read a newspaper. Go check up on Caribana for the past 2 years, see why 2 people were murdered.

Once again, have a great night.

abbey: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:03 GMT

"...regardless of what she said, she should have been smarter, people have been murdered over LESS."

CYNIC: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:06 GMT

What's she got in her hand in the third photo down? Something with prongs...

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:16 GMT

still don't see an example here.

And I'm tired of all the "OH NOES! EVERYONE HAS A GUN AND WILL POP A CAP IN YOUR ASS AS SOON AS LOOK AT YOU!"

I once had a cop tell me that the people in my neighbourhood would, and I quote, "slit your throat for five bucks." What a load of horseshit that was. Yeah people get killed without a good reason, beacause there is no good reason. And people we know all too well that complete innocents have been hit by stray bullets and killed in this city. But I refuse to put up with people telling us we should all Mind Out Own Business because They Might Have A Gun.

If I need to read a newspaper, you need to read between the lines.

kenobi: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:17 GMT

Perhaps you've missed the story of Matti Baranovski getting beat up in a North York park over cigarettes ?

hmmm ?

shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:18 GMT

That is a good example, thank you.

Although I maintain that things like that happen FAR too few and far between for any of us to be concerned about them in our day-to-day life.

elias666: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:33 GMT

two idiots fighting in the street like idiots. i don't give a shit that the girl is riding a bike, asshats ride bikes and drive cars, as this BS clearly demonstrates.

I do think it is funny that that dude seems to be getting his ass kicked by someone that weighs 20lbs less than him and is wearing a backpack and funny shoes though.

Mush-: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:43 GMT

actually, they're not too far and few in between, because prevalence of occasions like this increases when nothing is done in anyone's defense. as a canadian living in america for school, i've seen a lot of senseless shit. american's think nothing of it and move on with daily life. the same is happening to canada. canada is 12 years behind the U.S. (fact quoted to me by a police officer friend of mine) in terms of crime. the worst is not yet here and i should hope that we have developed better strategies for keeping our streets safe but more importantly, a strong sense of community when it comes to aiding others.

the point is that in this forum, there are several individuals even attempting to blame the girl. while it would have been "safer" and "less provocative" of the situation to take it in stride and walk away, that's what the states does. what should be on everyone's minds is that it's wrong to litter and those who do should be held accountable. second, it was nice to see everyone come to her aid. there comes a point in time where the community needs to fight crime itself.

weave: 27th Jan 2006 - 01:52 GMT

i'm not the athletic type, but isn't baseball a little out of season?

JayMTL: 27th Jan 2006 - 02:10 GMT

Just to add another dimension - the thing I miss the least about being a courier is the road rage. Having people swerve at you in their cars sucks - but what sucks even worse is all the times people threaten your life just by not paying attention or by looking right through you - cutting lanes quickly while talking on their phone, not checking their blindspots, throwing open their doors while choking down a burger, whatever. I got pissed all the time because some idiot just made me dive to dodge their ass - and they don't even know what they did. What can you do? You're busting your hump all day to earn a decent paycheque - you don't have the liberty of stopping to sort people out. Most people you say something to will get uppity if you get in their face, even if they are wrong, and retaliating against cars DOES inspire instant road rage in most people, especially males. As a courier, you're kinda fucked all day long that way. So I can totally see that trash coming out the window as just being that one "fuck-you" too much for that particular courier. You learn to mellow out and expect every single person on the road to get in your way or try to kill you, but the essence of the situation remains... Nope, don't miss that at all!

So ya, the fight didn't prove anything, didn't change anything, but I betcha that courier felt good about getting some frustration out :) She'll be the talk of the courier bar I'm sure. And not letting Captain Aneurism there get his way is good in a karmic way I like to think.

I propose a petition to force all cyclist-directed road-ragers to ride a bike for 6 months. All in favour...

Jay

machry: 27th Jan 2006 - 02:14 GMT

mr. flagg: I think she's the animal's (ex?) girlfriend...

actually... check out that ROCK!!! she married the animal!

machry: 27th Jan 2006 - 02:16 GMT

I would hope it was like the scene out of Anchorman w/ Jack Black....

i.e. the tossing of garbage out the window caused a wipeout on the bike.

That's the only way I can see it justified.

endlessxmike: 27th Jan 2006 - 02:16 GMT

What would you do if someone dumped coffee on you? getting assaulted definitly justifies damageing property and damaging property does NOT justify that asshole assaulting her. what SHOULD you do if someone messes with you? get 3rd degree coffee burns and cry about it?

bottom line, damage property and if they get out of the car with a baseball bat damage their face with your U Lock.

kevin: 27th Jan 2006 - 02:26 GMT

as a bicycle commuter myself and someone who has had their share of run-ins with moron drivers i say the cyclist probably has enough pent up anger against just about anyone in a car to justify what she did in her mind. its a war out there on the streets sometimes and if a cyclist loses... well they tend to eat it a little harder than even the weakest cars will.

jethro: 27th Jan 2006 - 02:44 GMT

they couldn't have picked a better spot for fighting. the background colors look like an army surplus store.

Mike: 27th Jan 2006 - 03:00 GMT

I've picked up litter and chased people down to give it to them. Granted, I didn't toss it through their open window. But still: fuck cars.

Cherri: 27th Jan 2006 - 03:54 GMT

Whoever said that yelling at him would have taught him a better lesson than giving him back his garbage obviously doesn't ride a bike in the city. Even when people almost hit you with their car and you yell at them they are more than willing to scream back at you or try to start something. Just telling him she "didn't appreciate his littering" probably would have still set him off to some degree.

Sam: 27th Jan 2006 - 04:07 GMT

Shyzer I can think of an example; A fellow was beaten to death, tortured 3 hours, burned and raped, sodomized with a stick and stomped on so hard a boot print was left in his face.

He had laughed at an acquaintance because of the way the acquaintance vomited after accidentally inhaling a drink and choking which provoked vomiting.

That's off the top of my head, there are a million examples and probability sez if you look you will find one where littering was the provacation.

Gonna, can't stop me.: 27th Jan 2006 - 04:28 GMT

This guy doesn't pay the dues for flippin out I gaurantee his wife will force him into an anger management program.....she'll have too when his pic (and hers) with his name is plastered all over the GTA.

I've got my own all set up, but for fun

How About A Caption Contest?

Pic 14 is the official screw the violent guy pic, captions anyone?

hool: 27th Jan 2006 - 05:15 GMT

to the previous commenter: please do not print these images and "plaster them all over the GTA". no, i cannot stop you, but i can sincerely request that you do not do so. this would be a further escalation of this situation, which is not warranted. feel free to discuss your thoughts here, make some captions, but please do not print these photographs (with or without names) and post them around toronto, the only thing it could do is cause further violence.

Peter: 27th Jan 2006 - 05:47 GMT

im with hool. be wise. respect. comment here. keep it here.

these were posted with good faith to a select audience. this entry has blown up with tons of publicity, and been viewed by a wider audience than expected.

hool: 27th Jan 2006 - 06:06 GMT

peter: thanks for the support. i don't publish anything in internet space with intent toward a select audience. i know very well that once something is put online, it's out of my control, so the narrowness or wideness of the audience is beside the point.

my point is that going to the trouble of printing pictures along with names and then postering them throughout the city is clearly an act of provocation, *not* dissemination. this event is over - it should be discussed, yes, but not further escalated.

adam: 27th Jan 2006 - 07:14 GMT

peter.. how wide of an audience? i can only imagine the amount of hits this thread has gotten

UsVSthem: 27th Jan 2006 - 07:29 GMT

Throwing your garbage on the streets is assault on us all.

Fuck that guy, fuck the interior of his car, fuck his paint job! He could have easily thrown his garbage in the back of his SUV. Back in that huge expanse of wasted space. He should fear throwng garbage on the street, for he ends up with an asswhoopin!

And fuck motorists! Its us versus them. They are never going to except us as bikers anyway, so why should we except them?

Can't wait till we run out of oil. Then fuckers like that will have to give up their SUV's.

Dear Shyzer: 27th Jan 2006 - 07:51 GMT

"I'm asking for one example. A specific example, not generalizations. I refuse to believe that there's a trend or people simply killing perfect strangers for looking at them the wrong way. It's simply an urban myth."

People commit random acts of violence for no reason at all, all the time. Last week someone was stabbed with a screwdriver in the back, no theft, no argument, just stabbed. Recently, someone assaulted a man while a friend video taped it. Random act, no reason.

He never said there was a trend, only that "people have killed for less" - which is true. No reason at all is less a provocation than littering.

Jeremy: 27th Jan 2006 - 07:53 GMT

I like how the bikers say "fuck him, fuck his car" and "she's right, he shouldn't stomp her bike".

So her property should be respected, while his is fair game.

Someone else already summed it up - they're both fucking idiots for escalating this well beyond reason. He shouldn't have dumped coffee on her and she shouldn't have keyed his car. It's not bikes vs. cars here, it's common sense vs. rage and they're both on the wrong side of that equation. End of story.

mnbiker: 27th Jan 2006 - 09:15 GMT

hey this made it's way on to our biking forum in MN.
as i posted in that forum.

when you think about it traffic had to be moving slow that day.
wait for some one to drop something out of a car window.
bike over stop pick it up.
find the car and get close to them.

that would take some time, you would think if you could do all of that you could ride away turn down a one way or bolt and the person would not get you. did she want to piss the guy off. it really seems like if she had that much time to do the above she would have had time to bike away. yet she was that close that he could get her with coffee. then she stuck around to key his car, she did not take off she then stuck around to wait for him to get her off the bike.

seems to me she could have been 2 blocks away at least i would have been.

Jamie: 27th Jan 2006 - 10:44 GMT

adam: well at the time of writing this, this page says it has been viewed 4099 times, and it's also jumped to the top of this months list of most popular articles. nice one hool.

toronto cyclist: 27th Jan 2006 - 13:06 GMT

your all basing it on assumptions of 'accurate' inforamtion, which Hool admits himself he didn't see how it all started. he just heard second hand that she picked up the garbage and threw it back in the car. It's quite possible when driver tossed it out his window in the first place that it hit her in the face or landed right in her lap.
That would mean the difference for me, if the guy tossed garbage and it missed my head by an inch... I'd be pissed and probably yell, but that's it. But if it directly hit me in the face I'm sure I'd be pushed to the point of retalliation.

Cheesy_Member: 27th Jan 2006 - 14:15 GMT

Getting his car keyed kinda serves him (the driver) right for littering. I bet he'll think twice about that from now on. Or maybe not. Maybe he'll carry a gun instead of a bat next time. What is our city becoming?

This is so so wrong, no one desrves to have their car keyed for littering. Paint Job costs £1000's picking up litter costs nothing.
To be honest is miss goody two shoes dislikes littering so much she should have taken his plate and reported him. Doing anymore than this and she deserves everything she got!!!

steelisreal: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:04 GMT

I think we have 2 types of people that are coming here and looking at this from different angles.

1. the people that believe cyclists and especially couriers are always right in these type of things. these people will defend couriers to the last days over the right to defend themselves or what not.

2. and now for the others, the ones that can find fault in the courier and in the man and think both should be charged.

i personally like the courier, being a bike punk myself.... i think she did nothing wrong. I also advocate peeing on suv door handles and stickering them with anti-suv slogans.... just my mentality i guess.

JayEastsider: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:11 GMT

Where is that Hool in Kensington Market?

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:16 GMT

the guy is a turd for throwing garbage on the street, BUT he didn't throw the garbage at her, so why the hell did she go out of her way to pick up the garbage and throw it at him. everyone seems to be on the cyclist side but it looks to me like she assaulted him first.

I'm all for smashing, keying, breaking mirrors, windshields etc....... but only when a motorist tries to kill or hurt me first.
I was a messenger in Toronto and i've had motorists spit at me, side swipe me, and try to run me off the road in busses, now thats a reason to be pissed.
I see someone throwing garbage, hey your a jerk this a clean city we don't appreciate that. but i'm not gonna risk getting into a fight over it.

broken: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:18 GMT

Of course she did something wrong, throwing food back in his car is just as wrong as him throwing it out, it's just as much assault as throwing coffee ( ie, throwing anything at someone is assault regardless of temperature ) they're both at fault here, he shouldn't have littered, she could've thrown the food out and taken his plate down if she cared that much about littering instead of starting a confrontation, I don't think anyone here would take something thrown at or in their car lightly ( regardless of whether it's deserved or not ).

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:21 GMT

exactly, and for the guy that says all cyclist would be on the cyclist side and all non-cyclist would be on the motorists side, your wrong. i'm a cyclist and i see who's right and who's wrong.

Peter: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:30 GMT

i love that our toronto contingent can tell that this is kensington, just based on the few, detailed photos. cool.

John: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:44 GMT

There seem to be a lot of people arguing about who messed up more. Just to weigh in, it was obviously the driver, but this isn't the point. Both sides clearly made some decisions which were ultimately detrimental to their safety but this is not the point either. While this motorist was armed with a baseball bat, here in DC that could easily have been a 9mm. Hool said it all "a food fight should not escalate to skull cracking nor murder." There are a lot of assholes out there and you're never gonna change that. While it may not seem as gratifying at the time, the sweetest revenge is to blow by them at the next red light. Standing up for yourself means self preservation too.

Adam in Mpls: 27th Jan 2006 - 15:57 GMT

I dunno man... he threw his shit out into her space, and she just returned it back to his space.

When you're in a situation like that, what are you gonna do? Report littering to the police? Yeah, they'll get right on that. Report having coffee spilled on you to the police? Same thing, plus he'll just point out how you threw his garbage back at him, and cops are always sympathetic to drivers. You can't go after the guy himself because he's ensconced in steel, so a minor scratch is the only way to really get his attention. I guarantee that cost less to repair than the damage to her bike.

But I still don't get why she stuck around. It looks like he went all the way around the back of his minivan to come after her. An experienced messenger like that could've been blocks away. She was obviously not done with this punk.

Still, I'd say that the worst thing to come out of it was going after the photographer with a baseball bat. Hope he serves jail time for that one.

I wonder how it all played out in the end.

Fritz: 27th Jan 2006 - 16:07 GMT

I don't get it. How do you know the guy is a motorist and not a pedestrian? You ever see that episode of STar Trek TNG, where the Romulans are on board, but kinda frozen in time? Everything looks like an invasion, but then it turned out the Romulans were actually helping our guys - cause the frozen images were misleading. Anyways, just based on the pictures, the guy is a crazy fuck, and the Ms. Tour de france is a butt licker.

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 16:09 GMT

nobody mentioned the garbage being thrown AT her space. If this is the case then yeah by all means throw the garbage back at him. but the way i heard the story i sounded like she provokes the whole situation.

J. Cash: 27th Jan 2006 - 16:12 GMT

I shot a man in Reno; just to watch him die.

Also, litter bugs are asshats that WASTE my Tax dollars, directly hurt the value of my property, create health hazards, and are, as a rule, self-centered, inconsiderate sub-humans that should have been raised better. The fact that this guy was driving an SUV makes the offense exponentially worse.

simonpeter: 27th Jan 2006 - 16:23 GMT

hey pete im from belfast in ireland and i knew it was kensinton market,lol i have to say i was pretty chuffed myself,cheers

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 16:26 GMT

A message to Canadian messengers:
recent immigrants from eastern european countries don't take getting garbage thrown at them lightly.

burnasuv: 27th Jan 2006 - 16:31 GMT

So we don't know the whole story, but if you drive an SUV, especially in an urban enviroment, probability is you are an asshole. Thats not speculation. I mean, there has to be a statistic somewhere to back this up.

Us vs them. thats right. Torch an SUV today (just make sure you can get away).

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 17:00 GMT

i didn't notice she was riding a fix, so the virus has spread to my brothers in the north as well? DAMN!

lucky palindrome : 27th Jan 2006 - 17:07 GMT

He is lucky he didn't get a u-lock to his jaw. Idiot.

hool: 27th Jan 2006 - 17:14 GMT

it's interesting to me that everyone assumes the driver was driving an SUV. that was not the case. it was a small four door.

to further clarify - although i did not see what instigated the event, i was told word for word by the officer at the scene, and he got both sides of the story from the courier and the motorist, which i was told were essentially identical.

thisishowiride: 27th Jan 2006 - 17:52 GMT

Dang, that's messed up. That guy has some issues, and I hope he's caught.

John: 27th Jan 2006 - 17:53 GMT

I think the reason people assume that is that there is an SUV (or maybe a minivan) in the pictures. And what's with the censorship? That was a joke, sorry if you didn't get it.

Jannx: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:10 GMT

Lets see the time line here…

• Male throws trash out of his car onto the city street instead of a trash receptacle. Litter by law violation .. not too serious but do it on his front yard and he’d be….
• Female picks up Males trash and tosses it back into Male’s vehicle, nothing happening here regarding violations
• Male throws hot coffee on female, definitely a violation with lots of precedents to back up the assault. .. no contest. Female has a bill now for cleaning her clothes.

Score Male 2; Female 0

• Female keys Male vehicle, definitely a violation ; vandalism bill to Male unless he is able to go and get a conviction in small claims court for payment for a new paint job or make an insurance claim.
• Male assaults female, definitely a violation and now we are in ‘serious territory’
• Male trashes female bicycle, violation , vandalism, she can go after him in small claims court for a conviction. (note the car will run with a scratch so earning a living with the car is not an issue for the Male. The female uses a bicycle for earning a living as a low paid courier, net effect she is now disadvantaged for earning her livelihood.

Score Male 4; Female 1

• Male goes to trunk and hauls out a bat to assault the photographer
• Photographer skedaddles

Score Male 1; Photog 0

Final tally Male 5; Cumulative others 1

Defending the Male because he is being attacked by others in this thread is a case in bailing a leaking boat. Good luck, I don’t want any of you in my family gene pool. The guy is a thug. The female has more guts than most of the readers here. Shes okay, I’ll buy her a coffee anytime.

JP: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:14 GMT

I knew there was a reason I didn't want to live in Toronto, with pigs like him around it's no surprise the "cleanest" city in North America is looking a bit haggard. Good for her for standing up to the jerk.

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:19 GMT

"• Male throws trash out of his car onto the city street instead of a trash receptacle. Litter by law violation .. not too serious but do it on his front yard and he’d be…."
so what is she the local litter police?

"• Female picks up Males trash and tosses it back into Male’s vehicle, nothing happening here regarding violations"
throwing trash at someone is assault.
first personal attack: female 1; male 0.

Buffalo: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:23 GMT

You guys have real VIOLENCE up there? It always looks so nice. Well, at least no one got shot.

You guys are becoming more and mroe like us everyday, eh? :-)

Peter: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:48 GMT

www.metafilter.com/mefi/48623

sho fizzle: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:48 GMT

What's wrong with horking a great big green loogey on his windscreen?

It doesn't hurt anyone (unless you've got TB), it doesn't permanently damage property, and it appropriately expresses a biker's disagreement with a situation.

Loogeys are the answer, I firmly believe. In Canada, they freeze to the windscreen so the guy would have to pick it off with his fingernail. Just adds to the impact of the protest, I think. In the summer, they dry to a beautiful shine within minutes, again necessitating the fingernail approach for removal.

Instead of keying a vehicle or U-Locking someone's face, just hork on his car! In the end, everyone is happier. And your get-away will be easier since you won't have nasal obstruction with excess snot.

If your bike is being jacked, make sure you hork on the wheel too, so buddy would get a sticky, salty reminder not to grab your bike so quickly again.

To do this most effectively, you need to learn how to hork efficiently, because the effect is not the same if you end up with drool hanging down your lip and getting on your pants (like my wife does when she tries to hork - she's beautiful, but really needs to work on her spitting technique).

The loogey should remain in a tight wad during flight, spreading artfully accross the windscreen upon impact. I would give bonus points for a multicoloured loogey. Streaks of blood make a real statement.

I say, everyone should practise horking on cars on the ride home tonight. It is cathartic and decongesting simultaneously.

Everyone with me?

pegcity: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:53 GMT

was a courier for 18 yrs,started angry and confrontational,ended with zen like move through it all and pay it no mind style,unless no other option.
car guy is over the top.courier girl is gonna be on the road ,and visible as long as she rides,i hope she'll be safe. avoid confrontation is better imo to remain safe. as the yanks point out,guns are widespread and people will use them.cars are lethal weapons too. littering is wrong ,i admire the girl for her action,but is it really worth the potential outcome? was she really done for the day,or out of trips for that period of time? guy should be lobotomized,girl needs to take a vacation

innocent bystander: 27th Jan 2006 - 18:56 GMT

burnasuv: oh for the love of pete, what the hell kind of logic is that? is burning an SUV helping your environment? paint, gas, oil, plastic and rubber all send noxious toxins into the environment when burned. or is this selfish, short sighted 'logic' just a way for you to feel better about condoning antisocial harm? i hate SUVs too, and i still think you're a tool...a tool of the culture you rail against. destruction is destruction regardless of politics. next...

Roy: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:02 GMT

I've had a similar situation, with similar results (except that no women were involved).

I clipped a mirror on accident with handlebars, mirror got folded in but undamaged. I wasn't quite aware that I did this.

Motorist charges at me with car, I barely avoid being hit by jumping curb onto sidewalk

Motorist jumps out of car, runs towards me, grabs me and throws me off bike.

I get up, take two steps back, call 911. he stops and backs off.

The police when they came there, talked to him, etc etc, told me that he had every right to try and "detain me" because I had "damaged his property".

in this state you are allowed to defend your property, and those fleeing prosecution after damaging it, using "any appropriate physical force".

hostile: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:19 GMT

Ah Kensington, I knew ye well. He's a fuckwad for throwing shit out his window and hitting a girl, she's a bitch for throwing it back and keying his car. Now that's the Toronto I know! Make no mistake, couriers can be complete cocksuckers too. Their sense of superiority and entitlement only takes a backseat to motorists. Toronto's like a haven for fucking retards with shit attitudes.

Anonymous coward: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:31 GMT

I have some sympathy for the messenger but not much. She made the first move. Yes, the guy's reaction is waaay over the top but, we're I judging this legally, I'd come down on the side of the motorist.

kerry: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:37 GMT

Agression begets agression. It could have ended much worse.

d: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:43 GMT

im just glad no one got seriously hurt.

hool: was her bike damaged? do you have more photos of this situation?

Clay: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:45 GMT

Do we know who this chick is?
I second that...

p3rp: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:50 GMT

i dont know whos to blame as far as the drama goes, but i *do* know that this guy has some yellow-ass teeth.....

whatever : 27th Jan 2006 - 19:51 GMT

if you get a license to drive it does not entitle you to throw food and that cguy blows chunks

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 19:53 GMT

[Toronto's like a haven for fucking retards with shit attitudes.]
amen to that!
goes for both of them.

anon (MTL-ppp-156754.qc.sympatico.ca): 27th Jan 2006 - 19:55 GMT

I think maybe the 2nd chick is the drivers girlfriend??

ViewFromAfar: 27th Jan 2006 - 20:08 GMT

My Observations:
Photo #1: he is grabbing her seat to slow her down, she must have been riding. Id say he then grabbed her wheel to stop her.
Photo #2: he seems to be winding up to kick her.
Photo #3: she has an arm raised to defender herself or perhaps to catch her balance after he is knocking her over.
Photo #4: he has started grappling with her and attempting to knock her from her bike.
Photo #5: she seems hurt and her other leg is trapped under the bike which he is in the process of stomping.
Photo 6+: she starts to defend herself and others step in to break up the scuffle.

it seems to me that many people are assuming alot about this situation, the only people that know what happened are the two involved. Since people have mentioned knowing the cyclist why not get her to post her side of the story? and with the number of pageviews maybe someone could find the male and get him to post his side. then we could really talk about the situation.

P.: 27th Jan 2006 - 20:09 GMT

I'm glad I go into Kennsington everyday for lunch, maybe me and my co-workers will see this guy while strolling and launch some garbage his way. Hopefully he'll charge at us and provoke us into "defending" ourselves... as obviously he is a very tough person to pick a fight with a woman.

?: 27th Jan 2006 - 20:13 GMT

I'm just wondering why anyone didn't cold-cock the guy the second they saw him lay a hand on a woman?

Etc Etc: 27th Jan 2006 - 20:43 GMT

I like how everyone glosses over the fact that she's punching him with her keys between her fingers. THAT is assault with a deadly weapon, no?

Percival: 27th Jan 2006 - 20:51 GMT

The side of my car got a footlong scratch by a bike courier who jumped off the sidewalk and ran a red light.

Rather than whoop his skinny butt, I called the cops and followed him in the car. He was charged with leaving the scene of an accident and temporarily lost his driver's license. My insurance company sued him and his employer to recover the cost of painting two doors.

Now THAT's sweet revenge and no one ever harassed me with a potential assault charge.

anon (h162-040-088-098.adsl.navix.net): 27th Jan 2006 - 21:00 GMT

sombody needs to find out who that guy is and kick his ass

Argent47: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:01 GMT

I cannot see her "punching" him with her keys in those photos, although she does appear to be holding her keys in the first couple or so, I cannot see where it looks like she actually punched him, although she might have tried, but then fell on her ass. People who throw stuff back into cars are wrong. It is always somebody in the middle of a big, dirty city who suddenly decides they are sole conscience responsible for judging litterbugs. I never see these people picking up the sidewalk or trying to clean anything. Littering does not justify assault. She is a courier, she is stressed as part of her daily, she took it out on a litterbug and it went out of control. The guy looks like an f*ing asshole, but the whole situation sounds like it is her damn fault for being an arrogant bitch. I had a homeless guy in the city do this to me one time, flicked a cigarette butt in my face that I had tossed out. Oh I am sooo sorry! He was arrested and I filed charges against him. You pickup the litter, inform the people that they are assholes for littering loudly enough so others hear, throw it in a nearby receptacle and stand there giving them a dirty look. That is about all you are allowed to do under the law. You could take pictures of them and post them here. But any type of physical or property assault is bullshit. Anybody who thinks they are Judge Dredd, or who thinks they are so perfect as to be able to rectify all littering by applying selective vengance (or assholes who attack young women and try to kill them like this guy) needs to grow up. I have a *little* sympathy for the girl, and basically none for the guy. They should be forced to apologize to one another and admit to a situation of mutual assholeness on public tv. Beyond that, fk em!

katrinar: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:01 GMT

you never know how others are going to react anymore.

i think everyone here is simply saying that things CAN get pretty rough now adays.

i've lived in this city for nearly 30 years, and only in the last 5 have started to feel unsafe in any way.

Sushi: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:03 GMT

Fritz SOOOOO TRUE!

The first I thought was that guy must be polish. BTW bikers can be such beligerant asses as if they own the road.

Mark: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:05 GMT

Messed five years in DC. Saw plenty of this kind of silliness. All I can say is choose to de-escalate.

Timichango: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:13 GMT

Jesus-h-christ - psycho motorists strike again! It's getting bloody ridiculous out there. Glad that she's ok... can't say I'm as glad about the driver. If anyone knows her, and if she needs some help getting her ride fixed up, email me and I'll do what I can to assist a fellow fixer: biobeast at hot mail dot com

Mews: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:21 GMT

"The side of my car got a footlong scratch by a bike courier who jumped off the sidewalk and ran a red light.

Rather than whoop his skinny butt, I called the cops and followed him in the car. He was charged with leaving the scene of an accident and temporarily lost his driver's license. My insurance company sued him and his employer to recover the cost of painting two doors. "

Hey wow! You're a sociopath! Congratulations.

Brixton: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:26 GMT

I read about half the comments, and don't have time to finish, as interesting as the debate may be. But the fact of the matter is, as far as the law would be concerned, it would be SHE who would be considered to have committed the first act of disorderly conduct/threat/assault, because she willfully and with intent picked something up and threw it at a person. He would be considered to have been littering, which is not a crime against a person (in this case, the messenger). While self-defence would sound like a silly argument on his part given that it was just a bit of garbage directed his way, it would legally hold water. She'd best not pursue a criminal case in this situation, as it would likely backfire on her, with damage to property charges to boot.

However, the photographer does have an easy case of disorderly conduct or terroristic threat, if the driver did indeed come charging at him with a bat, unprovoked and not in self-defence against the photographer.

Joe: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:35 GMT

Why were you taking pictures rather than helping the bike courier? If no one showed up, she could have been really hurt.

Etc Etc: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:42 GMT

Actually, I don't know if it's keys or some kind of clip. In picture 3, you can see her with it in her right hand, and in picture 4, she is hitting him with her right hand (though her hand is blocked from our view by her arm). She is, clearly, hitting him with the two prongs of the clip/keys.

Guest: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:42 GMT

The bitch chucked food in his car. Yeah, he's a moron for littering, but she made it personal. He reciprocated with another personal and extremely immature move (dumping coffee on her).

It's nice she's so passionate about the environment that she *seeks personal confrontation* by shoving food back into people's laps, but honestly, what did she expect?

Galaxy: 27th Jan 2006 - 21:45 GMT

Mad props to her for returning the litter to it's rightful owner and mad props to those people who intervened. If id'a seen her drop his garbage back in his car I woulda laughed at his crazy ass.

That dude, needs his wifey in the white vest, to schedule an appointment with a psychiatrist asap (and some tooth whitening toothpaste). Really, it took 6 people to hold him back and he's still acting all buck wild, he was prolly making crazy animal sounds the whole time. He dumped coffee on the couriers head? Wha'?? Stompin' on the tire, pullin' on the bike, pullin' on her then he busts out with a baseball bat? That dude's got some dangerous pent up rage inside of him.

If he doesn't watch it with the anger he'll end up in prison being someone's bi***. Really, though.

Triadmaster : 27th Jan 2006 - 22:03 GMT

To "Mews": Red light means stop. I'm glad that the violater of it was made to pay. You need to study more, and until you do, please stay in your mommy's driveway. - TF

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BicyclistsBillofRights

Blake: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:04 GMT

"Female picks up Males trash and tosses it back into Male’s vehicle, nothing happening here regarding violations
throwing trash at someone is assault."

Chucky, repeat after me, "The vehicle is not the person." "The vehicle is not the person."

Not that the cyclist was in the right, but what she did is not assault.
(And I am picking on you, but you're not the only person in the thread who made this mistake, and I think it's a telling one.)

Chucky: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:08 GMT

she threw the food/garbage at him through his window. she's outta line.

Liz: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:12 GMT

"Oh lord. Don't you start on that too. Please give me ONE example of someone being murdered over litter."

Don't know anyone that has been murdered over litter...but someone was murdered all because they wouldn't buy cigarettes for some underage punks.

rick: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:25 GMT

From what I heard (and I wasn't there, but this is from someone who was, and is there in the pictures wrestling with the driver), the driver came too close to the cyclist, nearly knocking her down. But her handlebar scratched the paint on the car. He yelled something nasty at her, she yelled something nasty at him - that's when he got out of her car, and these photos start.

Sorry, that's second hand, but I heard it right after the altercation.

EnviroTO: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:29 GMT

Who knows how she put it into the car. She may have just lobbed it in and not even hit him which is not assault... it is littering into his car. Without knowing what path the garbage took and at what velocity it is impossible to say whether she did anything wrong at that point. To me having coffee poured onto a person is a far greater violation than tossing some piece of garbage (which unless really slimey or heavy would have no impact on the recipient). The guy committed the first crime, she put the trash back into his car (only if the purpose was to hit him or if it hit him hard would that be a crime), he poured coffee on her (second crime), and she got back at him by scratching his vehicle (third crime). The whole attitude that his vehicle is sacred but the littering is fine and the assault on her is fine is misplaced. If somebody assaults me I'm not going to be too concerned about their property in the heat of the moment.

Matt: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:30 GMT

I like what she did, but she should also be prepared to deal with this kind of response. No one likes to be shamed in public, especially assholes. I spit into open windows of cars/trucks that are parked in a bike lane. If they endanger me for their own convenience, they should know my disgust. But I am also prepared to back that up -- either by riding my guts out to get away, or face some wrestling or yelling.

Chewy: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:33 GMT

I always want to pickup and throw back the butts / litter ppl throwing out from their cars. Those selfish ppl make our city dirty.

Jym: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:36 GMT

=v= Please, POST HIS PLATE NUMBER (and make and model of the vehicle). Their anonymity is a big part of why they feel they can act this way. Whatever the outcome of this particular case, we should all be able to know whether this violent gobshite is at the wheel.

Leah: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:45 GMT

Hello all! I am the girl in the pics. My name is Leah and although I am a courier, I was WALKING my bike up Agusta when the incident took place. He was driving and opened his door (while driving) and yelling profanities he threw his beef patty on a bun out of his door. I walked over to his car, and right or wrong, I opened the door and "gave" him back his food (which he MUST have dropped by accident!) He then lost it, and jumped out of his car and threw 2 large Timmies at meand then grabbed me by my helmet and tried to toss me around a bit.It was at that point that my bike lock key (that I wear on a bracelet around my wrist) scratched his car. I have read all the postings about people sympathetic to the car driver due to the expense of repairing the scratch but sorry folks, i doubt that it will cost him anything to repair as it was a 1.2cm mark in the clearcoat only(did not damage the paint) but regardless a scratch none the less. Then with some "encouraging" from some helpfull bystanders he got in his car and drove away...or so I thought! People were comming up to me and saying that I should have him charged but at that point I just figured I had made my anti-littering point and and eye for and eye with the coffee shower, I mean I did throw that patty right. But just as I was getting on my bike to ride home he came running back and thats when the photos start. He had driven half a block and decided that the scratch was worthy of a more thorough beating I guess.
Now for a bit of clarity on a couple of things...
The blonde girl is his girlfriend...she also makes a pretty good shield from an angry mob!
I was NOT punching anyone! especially not with keys in my hand! I was just trying to save my bike (I just built it a week ago!!)
And as for the police charging him....
He took off in his car as soon as he heard the sirens....they chased him down but it is not a crime to leave the scene. They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch.
So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way.
And finally to those who say that i must have had a sudden case of self ritousness in regard to littering.....YOU ARE WRONG! I hate littering and NEVER do> In fact I am constantly picking up litter and make my son pick up litter at the park. I just feel that it is such a fixable issue in the world today. If everyone would not throw their own piece of litter then there would be none!! What a concept eh!?
enjoy the beautiful winter riding!

Leah: 27th Jan 2006 - 22:49 GMT

P.S. if anyone knows the girl with the vest on, who was the first to jump on his back, please please let me know. I owe her at least a heartfelt thanks in person. And to everyone else who was there and helped out THANK YOU!!!! xo

Etc Etc: 27th Jan 2006 - 23:00 GMT

So the litter was a hamburger and bun? How is that different from people throwing bread crumbs to birds? Pigeons would clean up that "litter" in five seconds flat!

anon (thrillworks-v143.fibrewired.on.ca): 27th Jan 2006 - 23:05 GMT

Haha... It looks like he's gettin' his ass kicked by a chick. What a loser.

Leah: 27th Jan 2006 - 23:07 GMT

I see more "keys in my hand" nonsense...I did NOT have keys in my hand...what appears to be keys is actually the earbud to my mp3 player...it just happens to look like it is in my hand but is not, its just suspended in the air near my hand in this pic. And Etc, etc- It was a beef patty in a bun in paper and its bag...regardless...of what kind of food it was or whether it could be eaten by any one of T.O.s starving pidgeons...we all know that wasnt this jackasses intention when he popped his door and threw it out!

Dave: 27th Jan 2006 - 23:15 GMT

Leah, getting charged with Mischief is nothing compared to aggrevated assault. I urge you to reconsider and charge him. Seriously, he's an idiot who could possibily do this to someone else.

Begging: 27th Jan 2006 - 23:28 GMT

Please please please post plate number. Please?

anon (hwcgate.hc-sc.gc.ca): 27th Jan 2006 - 23:36 GMT

I hope the blonde dumps her loser boyfriend!

hool: 27th Jan 2006 - 23:38 GMT

hi leah (i'm the photographer). looks like i stirred up quite the shitstorm. i think it's caused a good debate and raised awareness. thanks for posting your side of the story.

to the previous poster: no, no plate numbers. that would serve no purpose except further violence. if leah can let it go, so can you.

lambchop: 27th Jan 2006 - 23:52 GMT

I've been beaten to a pulp for doing less than what she did, by big angry men. I'm wondering if the guy threw the food and somehow it landed on her? I think if had hit me in the face while riding, that's the only way I'd think of throwing it back into a car. Otherwise why bother? We live in filthy cities anyway, like getting back at one litterbug will make a difference. I wouldn't have pulled on his jacket, I think by that point I would've headbutted him and then punched him in the solar plexus. But that's me. I think it's cool that she got caught, I'm glad it got photographed, I tell people now about my courier life and sometimes about these kinds of stories and they never believe that a guy will actually haul off and beat up a woman in broad daylight...they just don't believe me. It was gratifying to see it caught on film. I hope SHE is ok and that he is reflecting on anger management skills. It wasn't a fair fight...the poor guy never had a chance.

Leah: 28th Jan 2006 - 00:01 GMT

Hey Hool,
WOW! Crazy debate, eh?! I couldnt figure out why all these ramdom people were coming up to me and talking about it....I was like, how the heck do all these people know about it?! But it is good to talk about things like this and I can respect the opinions of all the posts, both in my favor and not. I do know that I crossed a line by tossing the litter back at him (legally wrong) but would do it again as I feel that it was morally right. The people who ask if I think I am some sort of litter police are the same people who litter when they think noone is watching.
I am not sorry for doing my part to stand up for our city/planet.

Triadmaster : 28th Jan 2006 - 00:06 GMT

Smart move, not giving Bicoastal "_Jym_" the plate number. He's a dangerous kingpin of a _real_ whacko organization of thugs.

Chipotle: 28th Jan 2006 - 00:38 GMT

the girl deserved it! One time I saw a girl try to bother Tiesto while he was djing and Tiesto gave her a smack. Security came and threw the girl out of the rave for being so stupid!!!!! I would be mad to if my food came back into my car!

derek: 28th Jan 2006 - 00:38 GMT

you rock, leah. that dude was an idiot for getting physical. he made a mistake, you called him on it, and he should've owned up to it instead of acting like a moron. even if you would have scratched his car, it doesn't warrant assault (nothing does besides self-defense).

i hope his g/f convinces him to seek some help to deal with that anger.

Peter: 28th Jan 2006 - 01:03 GMT

hell, id smack tiesto if he was spinning at a rave i was at. he sucks.

DUH: 28th Jan 2006 - 01:16 GMT

Leah-- you got JUST what you deserved. Period. You see some littering and you want to serve up a little justice-- as YOU see it. Fine. Guess what, you open the door to allow some a-hole to do the same. You don't like what you got? Tough shit, sister. Next time, keep your fucking personal priorities to yourself. Dig?!

hool: 28th Jan 2006 - 01:38 GMT

to DUH: your post negates itself. you just told someone that it is your opinion that people should keep their opinions to themselves. DUH indeed.

PK: 28th Jan 2006 - 01:38 GMT

LEAH, Leah, Leah....I'm glad to hear you're ok, but things could've been much, much worse for you.

First tip that someone is off base should clue you to someone's emotional quotient. Low. Just chucking food out like that? Hello.

I'm very upset about the 'advice' the force ]Police[ gave you. I would like their badge numbers, because they ought to be reported to their supervisors. Why?

Van driver throwing coffee on you IS ASSAULT.

ANY MALE, ASSAULTING A WOMAN, needs to be thrown in jail. Period. WTF?

There are too many women abused by predators, like him. It's the same way he reacts at home, no doubt.

So, you accidentaly scratched his car and he attacks you physically, as well as your bike? Sorry, no reason for assaulting anyone, let alone a woman.

He also turned back to assault you.

That's premeditated, at this point.

The Police aren't fucking lawyers. They SHOULD have charged him with assault. Period. SO WHAT, you get charged with mischief. Your first offense, discharged. His assault on you is more troubling ]first the coffee[ then the premeditated assault ]because he returned[.

The Police just don't get it as well as many 'men' in this society, that you do not EVER strike a woman. Period.

The fact that he returned to assault you, because of a minor scratch, which he was himself responsible for, tells me he is off his meds, needs to be placed on meds or belongs in jail for a lesson.

Yep, I have a big issue with predators.

My Mother, who has a brown belt in karate has the same advice. Strike hard fast, then get the hell outta there. It's about self preservatiopn, not any medals.

Next time a male is getting in your face. A hard solid kick to the groin and skedaddle. Or a credit card on edge across the eyes works....

You take care and think before you act. There are many, many whack jobs out there and 999 Queen St., isn't happening for them.

Peter: 28th Jan 2006 - 02:31 GMT

i think this totally blows the fuck neck face post out of the water. not to mention justo gallego.

viva le new content takeover!

Walt: 28th Jan 2006 - 03:10 GMT

No licence plate numbers! This thread is being viewed by enough people (it is linked to at least one other Toronto forum now), that this idiot car driver will have it pointed out to him by numerous people. He'll look like a fool in front of people who actually know him and that is enough.

Walt: 28th Jan 2006 - 03:11 GMT

PS: thanks hool for posting these. You did a service.

anon (h-66-167-48-132.sttnwaho.dynamic.covad.net): 28th Jan 2006 - 03:27 GMT

Now being discussed on MetaFilter as well.

colin: 28th Jan 2006 - 03:27 GMT

it almost looks like that chick in the white vest is the girlfriend/wife of the offender???? is this true? it looks like theyre holding hands in one pic.

Steeker: 28th Jan 2006 - 03:31 GMT

Leah .
You did a good thing and I wish I was there I rode through Kensington about 12;30 pm that day, if your wheel is messed up I'll get you a new one.cheers

Masher: 28th Jan 2006 - 03:39 GMT

What the fuck are you people ranting on about? That skag courier commited an assault. Sure-you shouldn't litter, but you also shouldn't commit criminal assault, which is what that little cunt Leah did.

Fuck her. 'Defending her space.' Whatever.

Cavit8: 28th Jan 2006 - 03:47 GMT

Hey Leah

How's your bike? Looks like pencil neck was stompin' it a bit. Good goin' girl. I get pretty sick of people using this city as their trashcan.

Masher - feeble troll.

sm1: 28th Jan 2006 - 04:47 GMT

someone must have made a similar comment along the way but to me, the most disturbing thing is the absurd measurement that the first person used.. "scraping his car with a key takes it to a level far and above anything else. That sort of damage costs several thousand dollars to repair.." FAR ABOVE ANYTHING ELSE? AS IT COSTS...? Guess other intangible or abstruct damages, we don't know how much they would cost, huh? What a sad reflection of the world we live in.
money money money

take care leah

j: 28th Jan 2006 - 04:53 GMT

it obvious he is a wacko by carrying a baseball bat in the middle of winter...bet this isn't his first incident of road rage...100 to 1

tjstheiii: 28th Jan 2006 - 05:10 GMT

Being lazy and throwing your shit out onto a city street is an offence vs everyone in the city and everyone visiting the city. By putting it back in their car, where it should have stayed, is A-OKAY.

Littler spreads around, as a car hits that bag, tears it, the napkins inside fly around, the hamburger wrapper flies somewhere else.... you should have demonstrated this VIA spreading his burger around the inside of his car.

I'm not really sure why people in this post see it as such an offense to return an ignorant litter’s litter to the rightful spot, with the owner.

I’ll be sure to empty my garbage can in your living room. DO NOT RETURN IT TO ME; SIMPLY PLACE IT INTO YOUR TRASH. IT’S MY RIGHT TO THROW IT THERE LOLOLOLZZZ!!!!

It's your city, dont let lazy sob's trash it.

Galaxy: 28th Jan 2006 - 05:13 GMT

Yey Leah! Nice photos Hool!

Masher...why'd you throw the beef patty out of the window? Be a hoot, don't pollute! ;)

EnviroTO: 28th Jan 2006 - 05:18 GMT

I would have charged him and faced the consequences. He was over the top and deserves what he gets. When you say you gave it back to him did you throw it at him or pass it to him? In any case that array of charges he was going to get was serious and I can't help but think he shouldn't be getting away with it. He needs professional help with that type of temper... he could kill someone some day.

anon (cpe-24-164-154-80.si.res.rr.com): 28th Jan 2006 - 05:29 GMT

once I asaw a guy litter on my bike. I opened the passenger wdoor and threw the pepsi can back in. aparently he couldn't find a spot in NYC and had to pee in it. Unfortunately he became covered in his own urine.

U.P.: 28th Jan 2006 - 05:55 GMT

If his car got scratched because he attacked you and in the process of that your key scartched his vehicle, then who cares if you get charged. The charge will get dropped as it's due to his actions, not yours. Any reasonable prosecutor or judge would let you slide for returning his patty to him. Either way, being humiliated on the internet will be much harsher punishment for him. I wonder what his job is? You know this will make the news eventually.

T. PO'd O.: 28th Jan 2006 - 06:53 GMT

Leah kicks ass. Way to stand up for what you believe. You're brave(or psycho), either way you rule, and evil, littering, raging, skank dating, polluter sucks.

Es in Ottawa: 28th Jan 2006 - 07:08 GMT

Road rage is everywhere....my sister in law was on a city bus when the driver said to her watch this, he was about to 'squeeze out' a cyclist, when she saw it was her brother, my husband! She yelled don't do it! It's my brother, so the driver gave him space between the bus and the curb! Talk about crazy!

Leah, teaching your children to stand up for what you believe in, and to keep the city clean, you have shown everyone on this forum and others that you are a strong woman.

I do agree that pressing charges is paramount, please talk to a lawyer, I am sure that you will find one willing to talk to you especially with these photos to back it all up. Men like this don't do this only once, it is a way of life.

Stay strong and live large!

Es

another torontonian: 28th Jan 2006 - 07:32 GMT

leah created her own pile of shit. if u're gonna fire up the kitchen, be prepared for hell.

just a guy...: 28th Jan 2006 - 08:13 GMT

she's not trying to lay blame on anything else there guy. she fully accepts what she did and stands by it. you totally missed the point there champ. kudos to you.

leah: good job. the world needs more people like you.

cyclist hater: 28th Jan 2006 - 08:18 GMT

I would have run the bitch over if it was me. Then stole her bike.

Kristnaskelfir: 28th Jan 2006 - 08:23 GMT

Leah, please consider pressing charges. I'd chip in $100 to pay any "mischief" fine you might receive. (Which seems unlikely, considering the scratch occurred in the midst of his assault upon you.)

This man is a danger to society, and needs a criminal record to bring him to the attention of it. I'd bet he'll be specifically targetting couriers with his car from now on, if he gets away completely clean.

Mahatma Gandhi: 28th Jan 2006 - 08:34 GMT

I agree that the plate should be made public. It's not about more violence. Quite the opposite. If he knows he's not anonymous he is less likely to attack and to reach for a baseball bat.

cyberdude: 28th Jan 2006 - 08:36 GMT

Hehe. I love it.

According to this thread, his throwing something (coffee) at her is assault, but her throwing something at him (which was done FIRST, btw) is not.

His initial offense of littering is stupid, gross, and illegal. But it was not directed personally at Leah. Her throwing it back at him changed the dynamic of the situation.

Let me put that differently: She threw something at him. She was the first to commit any action directly against someone else. She's the one who made this whole thing personal. I know it's a hard pill to swallow, folks, especially because a lot of us are feeling with our hearts and not our minds (male vs female altercation, the guy's face in the pics, etc) and are siding with her, but this thread has an eyewitness account which clearly shows that while he was wrong for littering, she's the one who committed the first offensive act against an individual.

Arguing over details like "she didn't throw it at him, she threw it into the car where he was sitting" doesn't change the fact that she's still the one who took the situation and escalated it to a personal level.

And before I get totally destroyed in a flamewar of epic proportions, let me say this:

Good for her. If he threw food out the window, I hope she got some on him. With everything I said above, I still think she's less in the wrong than he is.

Though keying his car, while maybe deserved, was uncool.

/Don't scrap with bike messengers. Whether they're male or female, it don't matter. They're tough as nails.

cyberdude: 28th Jan 2006 - 08:43 GMT

... And then after hitting POST, I look back through the thread, and see Leah's given us her story.

gotta remember to read the WHOLE thread next time.

chewbaccasbitch: 28th Jan 2006 - 10:17 GMT

Fuck that dude, charge his ass for assault, We Aussies just jump on the radio and have a swarm of bike locks come crashing down on his numbskull....but screw him, leah, look into the pics and see the anger in his eyes, hes a cunt which needs to be taken down a notch. Im from Australia shit even we can see that this dude sucks.

William: 28th Jan 2006 - 11:09 GMT

I believe that the man who dumped trash was wrong. Having the trash put back in is justice. For those of you who think that it was wrong for her to put the trash back in; well, you will be the next one to drink the koolaid. Leah is a patriot if you ask me. She took a chance, got coffee thrown on her, and didn't care. She did what was right. And if you don't do what is right, then you're just better off.. sucumbing to what ever life gives.

Many of you cling to "laws" saying what she did was wrong. Citizens support laws. Some by taxes, Leah by action.

Action is the oposite of lethargy. Leah, if I weren't married, I'd marry you just for what you did. And I'd probably get my ass kicked out of the house.

j: 28th Jan 2006 - 13:29 GMT

bottom line regardless of sides in this issue...the man is a wacko, plain and simple, he's the one that turned a simple altercation into a full blow assault...

smarty pants: 28th Jan 2006 - 13:38 GMT

I can't believe some of the responses I'm reading here. People telling her she should'nt have thrown the food back in his vehicle. Fuck that, apathy is a form of laziness and not caring.

Its like this, if someone kicks you in the shin and you kick them back, does that give them the right to then attack you, no you were simply retaliating to the kick in the shins.
The problem with aassholes is they don't know they are assholes and people should take it upon themselves to inform an asshole, that they are indeed an asshole, which she did by throwing his garbage back in his vehicle. If he was smart he should have realized that he got busted for littering, drove away and found a garbage can, but he did not.
He was the one who made this a physical altercation buy throwing coffee, and there is a difference between someone throwing garbage back in the vehicle from which it came and someone intentionally throwing coffee on someone. Plus the fact he came back to have this continue proves his intent even more (Leahs' action was a reaction his was not).
And further more, what fucking man attacks a female, regardless of what she did, does'nt matter if she kicked the fuck out of his vehicle thats just wrong.

Remember kiddies, real men don't hit women!

Mantra: 28th Jan 2006 - 14:43 GMT

This world is turning to crap because we let it turn to crap. The system is broken when bad people get off on technicalities (i.e. "she started it by throwing the garbage back in his car", give me a f'n break!) and you people who who support that mode of thinking are the same people who would sue a store because you slipped on the sidewalk in front of it.

Right on. Someone who has the balls to let another human know that they are an asshat without manners, morals, nor ethics. Oh, that's right, she wasn't born with balls. Oh well, what's the rest of you guys' excuses??

FLIPSIDE: 28th Jan 2006 - 14:50 GMT

Pic number ten (7986.jpg) is a fucking Da Vinci. It's E.T. and Eliot touching fingers. It is so fucking rad. Look at the love there. The angry, cropped Alanis clutches the Blue Meanie while Bike Girl makes fishy faces. I'm fucking rock hard.

Scunny: 28th Jan 2006 - 15:05 GMT

Back in the day (25 years ago), when I first started as a bike courier, I too was guilty of returning litter to motorized slobs in much the same manner (although I never actually had to open a car door to do so, as their windows had always remained oh so temptingly rolled open). And while I was never physically attacked, I did find that the reaction from these motorists was often much more volatile than I would have expected.

Apparently, hese sadly deluded folks - who feel so comfortable further mucking up our planet than simply tossing their refuse in the rolling garbage cans they are already sitting in - feel incredibly threatened if the perceived sanctity of their auto's interior is violated. Theirs is a different world, a sense reality framed by a windshield and still selfishly distorted by the 20th century's North American paradigm of automotive dependence.

Eventually, I found it to be dangerously counterproductive to raise the often pannicked ire - road rage - in these deluded creatures, especially when they were still piloting a motorvehicle.

Leah's a much quicker study than I. Her behaviour throughout this real real-life episode appears to have been at the very least 'explainable', whether one views her involvement as a form of vigilante-ism or merely a street-level form of citizen's arrest (littering does
counteract Toronto's bylaws).

From my admittedly biased perspective, her complete willingness to own up to her complicity in the escalation of the altercation and her measured response to the prospect of raising it further, are simply continuing examples of the sort of an honest and evolving concern for the greater good, that just might be best that we humans have to offer.

And to those who are demanding the sort of public rebuke of the motorist that our philosophical messenger Leah is willing to let 'Karma the Enforcer' deliver; that time would appear no further off than about five minutes after somebody publishes Hool's photograph of this bozo's license plate.

Peace!

dd: 28th Jan 2006 - 15:41 GMT

I agree that the motorist is a bastard who deserves to be hung.

Leah deserves a sound spanking, and a fine though.

Anyone who, in her situation, cries "victim"(not that she necessarily is, but many people here are) needs to give their head a shake.

I've been in her situation dozen of times, after messengering for 14 years. I've learned, and accepted:

1. People are often assholes, with no respect for others. That means they might litter. What the fuck, is she the litter nazi? Is she so fucking pure that she has the right to throw it back at someone?

2. People are often violently insane and homocidal. Why assume that someone's not? Littering is the first clue they're a prick. Unless you're ready fight to the death, don't confront. Because some people are ready, and able.

3. People don't change through confrontation. Anyone who tries that route needs a shrink to work out their own personal issues.

4. Riding in the city you take your life in your own hands. Either learn to take the heat, and stay cool, and avoid confrontations, or get worked up into a frenzy, where you're throwing garbage at people, keying cars, getting in fights. It's a fact of human nature.

I feel for Leah. I've gotten in many fights, damaged cars, been damaged, you name it. Every single time, I could have avoided it.
It sucks, but it comes down to this: many people are assholes, meaner, and more equipped, in their cars, with baseball bats and guns, than I am. I now pick my battles.

That said, that driver should be executed publicly. And Leah fined.

Retrograde: 28th Jan 2006 - 16:12 GMT

I have to say that, this is not surprising at all. Its this kind of antics that lead to the ever-growing population of critical massers, who do nothing for the city other than disrupt traffic, and cause a general nuisance. As a cyclist myself, i should have some sort of empathy for critical mass'rs, but after that group attacked a friend when he was in his pathfinder, they lost sympathy from me.
Why? because he was handicapped at that time. Riding a bicycle is rather difficult when you have your left leg in splints.

That aside, the courier (Leah) does get my sympathy, as I have been privy to road-raging motor monkeys. Some of which who have purposely driven at speeds above 60 on 40limit roads, in an attempt to scare me off the road. This jerk in the red/black coat... needs something. The fact that he attempted to destroy Leah's bike is rather sad. Tossing garbage and inflicting a minor scratch may not be suitable behaviour, but stomping on the rear wheel and causing harm to the rider is far from returning favours. Effectively, by stomping on the rear wheel, you disable the bike out-right - it's an attempt to destroy. The equivalent to what he was accomplishing would probably be slashing a rear tire, pulling the transmission fluid plug, and tossing a few metal chips into the tranny (if it has an open-gate shifter)

This guy is super asshole when you take into consideration that he's driving through kensington. an area well-known for it's preference for cyclists and enviromentally-minded individuals.

I think PK said it best. It's assault, and you should press charges, and accept the mischief charge against you. It's a small price to pay, but it should be gladly accepted. People like that should not be allowed to drive.

argent47: 28th Jan 2006 - 16:48 GMT

Leah. Sorry if I made any rash judgements, old experience I am still mad about in my mind. I really think you should press charges and accept the mischief charge, things like this should be documented before something worse happens. You should be very careful with approaching strangers in the city, you really have no idea what they are going to do. But good luck!

hool: 28th Jan 2006 - 17:25 GMT

i've read more than a few comments stating this article as a 'fake'. would anyone care to elaborate on what leads them to that conclusion? maybe my photos were so good (except for the crappy underexposed ones) that it's too hard to believe that this actually happened? i think it also has to do with the expression of pure rage in the motorist's face - it's almost histrionic, hence casting doubt on the validity of the event.

John Edwards: 28th Jan 2006 - 17:31 GMT

Sorry, but the first agressive act in this situation belonged to the female. She's the one who picked the fight. Maybe she'll be just a little less agressive towards motorists now.

Dave: 28th Jan 2006 - 17:53 GMT

Litter, in our cities, Canadian cities, we are not making this up.

Dave: 28th Jan 2006 - 17:57 GMT

You Canadians are way to violent, I’m staying here in Oakland, much safer.:)

JK

Good for you biek chick, that guy was an A-hole

no, hool,: 28th Jan 2006 - 17:59 GMT

it isn't just that. all the poses and expressions seem stock and unnatural. it doesn't help that many of your older photos look this way, too.

and anyone at all could post the comment giving the courier a name: "oh, that's leah." and then "leah" herself could appear and tell her side of the story.

perhaps you could provide the names of the officers involved and the case number. something verifiable.

i mean, there's nothing wrong with faking it, really. i'm sure all the greats do. weegee used to do it all the time. the trick lies in not getting caught.

perhaps a solution is to just flat-out state, "i'm an artist, not a journalist," and abandon the burden of "what actually happened". i think it would free you up considerably.

Marvin Holivard: 28th Jan 2006 - 18:02 GMT

Come on... a female bicyclist picking a fight? This lesbian has too much testosterone flooding her veins. She should be pitied, and placed on an estrogen drip, stat.

hool: 28th Jan 2006 - 18:23 GMT

to the doubter: *shrug*. it's not like i was defending the validity of the event. i really don't care if it's considered 'real' or not, because the discussion surrounding it is real. but if i were to have staged this, i would have re-shot the first scene and got the damn exposure right. i take your disbelief as a compliment, so thank you.

i'm going out to shoot photos now. i'll make sure to tell the people in the streets "hey, stop looking so stock and unnatural - people on the internet aren't believing you!"

sometimes i'm an artist, sometimes i'm a journalist, often i am both together, they are not mutually exclusive.

weegee and hcb can eat a dong.

the cutterman: 28th Jan 2006 - 18:39 GMT

I wouldn't advise that sort of (cyclist) response here on South Africa. A lot of dudes are carrying and throwing garbage back into the car like that would get you shot, no error....

And if you key the car, then you an' yo mamma too!

Futon: 28th Jan 2006 - 18:50 GMT

Great shot hool! You really brough